Vegan cooking class

[Bishamonten]

What's the point of excessively good treatement of animals raised as food?  The end product is the same, while the prices are not.

The ends do not justify the means.  Just because they end up being butchered does not mean it is okay to mistreat them while they are alive.

Under what reasoning?  They are food.

They don't become food until they've been killed.  Until then, they are alive and feel pain just like anything else.

They are food the minute they are purchased, birthed, or otherwise transferred into the possession of a company who makes profit upon the sale of processed meat products.  As such, they are property and unless the laws change, the owners are within their rights.

[BigDun]

Temple Grandin has done a lot to change the practices of the modern slaughterhouse.

[cnamon]

What's the point of excessively good treatement of animals raised as food?  The end product is the same, while the prices are not.

The ends do not justify the means.  Just because they end up being butchered does not mean it is okay to mistreat them while they are alive.

Under what reasoning?  They are food.

They don't become food until they've been killed.  Until then, they are alive and feel pain just like anything else.

Dear God, please forgive me.  Love, Dots

[Alice]

As such, they are property and unless the laws change, the owners are within their rights.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

There are better ways to obtain meat.

[Beefy]

As such, they are property and unless the laws change, the owners are within their rights.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

There are better ways to obtain meat.

Exactly.  It is never okay to excuse torture or mistreatment.

[Gamplayerx]

I like Whole Foods.  They have an excellent salad bar.

[Jessie]

As such, they are property and unless the laws change, the owners are within their rights.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

There are better ways to obtain meat.

Exactly.  It is never okay to excuse torture or mistreatment.

I agree with that, hence my admitting to being hypocritical.

I've been to a chicken farm.  It made me sick.

[Alice]

I like Whole Foods.  They have an excellent salad bar.

And surprisingly great sushi.

[Bishamonten]

As such, they are property and unless the laws change, the owners are within their rights.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

There are better ways to obtain meat.

All of which include the killing of an animal.   The taking of a life is defacto 'mistreatment'.

[Alice]

As such, they are property and unless the laws change, the owners are within their rights.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

There are better ways to obtain meat.

All of which include the killing of an animal.   The taking of a life is defacto 'mistreatment'.

Yes, however there are more humane ways of doing it.  Ways that do not cause pain... or the pain is over in a second.

I eat meat - I can't not eat it.  But I feel better personallly if the meat I eat came from the most humane treatment possible. 

[Bishamonten]

As such, they are property and unless the laws change, the owners are within their rights.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

There are better ways to obtain meat.

All of which include the killing of an animal.   The taking of a life is defacto 'mistreatment'.

Yes, however there are more humane ways of doing it.  Ways that do not cause pain... or the pain is over in a second.

I eat meat - I can't not eat it.  But I feel better personallly if the meat I eat came from the most humane treatment possible. 

The most humane treatment possible would result in the lack of a dead animal. 

Secondarily, the 'humane' treatment of animals will drive prices up, thusly pricing out poorer farmers as well as putting less meat on the tables of low income families.  I do not equate animals to have the same basic rights of humans.  As it stands, I don't even believe in the 'all human life is sacred', much less does that fallacy extend to animals - especially those bread as food.

[Alice]

I do not equate animals to have the same basic rights of humans.  As it stands, I don't even believe in the 'all human life is sacred', much less does that fallacy extend to animals - especially those bread as food.

I'm also totally for eating convicts.  I wouldn't mind being a wendigo. 

[Bishamonten]

I do not equate animals to have the same basic rights of humans.  As it stands, I don't even believe in the 'all human life is sacred', much less does that fallacy extend to animals - especially those bread as food.

I'm also totally for eating convicts.  I wouldn't mind being a wendigo. 

Good luck beating the Hulk -and- Wolverine.

[cnamon]

There are a lot of people frequenting the bathroom now.  It smells really bad.

I think I am going to be sick.

[Alice]

There are a lot of people frequenting the bathroom now.  It smells really bad.

I think I am going to be sick.

Vegan food will do that to you.  Cleans out the colon.

Thats why if you want to have anal sex, do it with a vegan girl.  You're less likely to find Silly Butty in there.

[Beefy]

If you acknowledge the food chain, you acknowledge that some creatures will be eaten by others.  That fact doesn't excuse everything on the food chain mistreating or torturing what is under it.  You kill because you have to, not because it's fun to.

We're not always at the top of the food chain.  In certain situations, we're nowhere near it.  If I'm getting eaten, eat me.  Do not torture me for months on end or mistreat me.  The same logic can be used with P.O.W.s - just because one group has the upper hand doesn't mean it should be okay for them to torture the prisoners.

I could honestly give a sh*t less how acting humanely would affect the capitalist system.  I do not put the needs of business over the rights of all creatures to not be needlessly tortured.

I agree completely, however, over the sanctity of human life nonsense. 

For me, the very fact that we are in a position to exploit the lives of these animals is the very reason we should be vigilant against it. As has been proven again and again ad nauseum, humans are a nasty, self-righteous, sanctimonious bunch.

[Bishamonten]

I could honestly give a sh*t less how acting humanely would affect the capitalist system. 

Which is why your feelings on this matter are equate to nothing more than personal opinion and preference.  Jumping on people who are fine with the current SOP of the meat industry comes off only as haughty. 

[Beefy]

I could honestly give a sh*t less how acting humanely would affect the capitalist system. 

Which is why your feelings on this matter are equate to nothing more than personal opinion and preference.  Jumping on people who are fine with the current SOP of the meat industry comes off only as haughty. 

I never claimed it was anything other than opinion.  Everyone has got one.

Also, I don't know that I actually jumped on anyone specific.

That said, this isn't an opinion on something trivial, like wallpaper.  We're talking about abuse and torture.  These are living creatures, not paperweights.  So yes, I believe I have the moral high ground.  People can believe otherwise if they so choose.

[Beefy]

Bish has a good point here, so let me say something.

You all are my friends.  It is never my intention to belittle or chastise you.  However, I may challenge you sometimes because that is my nature.

BD mentions bottle rocketing a cow, that type of thing catches my attention.  Does it mean I think BD is the anti-Christ?  Of course not.  BD is a great guy.  But that doesn't mean that I can't have a reaction to it, even a strong one.

Certain things tend to get to me more than others by simple fact that I waited way too long to form my own opinions on them.  Things I feel as though I should have been considering long ago.  And so I get a bit more passionate about it.

And, sometimes, I'll even be a haughty dick about it.  Call me on it if you want.  And I'll decide whether or not I feel as though it was still justified.  After all, there isn't a single person here who doesn't secretly feel as though their opinion one matter or another is more appropriate than someone else's.  That's just being human.

[Gamplayerx]

I think it's great you have your own opinions, even though mine are the ones that are actually correct.  And I think it's great that there can be differences of opinion here without things getting nasty. 

Although, I think I can speak for a lot of people when I say I'm a bit disappointed that Beefy & Bishy didn't decide to settle matters in a jell-o fight.

[Alice]

Although, I think I can speak for a lot of people when I say I'm a bit disappointed that Beefy & Bishy didn't decide to settle matters in a jell-o fight.

No kidding.  I'm disappointed in both of them.

[BigDun]

Bish has a good point here, so let me say something.

You all are my friends.  It is never my intention to belittle or chastise you.  However, I may challenge you sometimes because that is my nature.

BD mentions bottle rocketing a cow, that type of thing catches my attention.  Does it mean I think BD is the anti-Christ?  Of course not.  BD is a great guy.  But that doesn't mean that I can't have a reaction to it, even a strong one.

Certain things tend to get to me more than others by simple fact that I waited way too long to form my own opinions on them.  Things I feel as though I should have been considering long ago.  And so I get a bit more passionate about it.

And, sometimes, I'll even be a haughty dick about it.  Call me on it if you want.  And I'll decide whether or not I feel as though it was still justified.  After all, there isn't a single person here who doesn't secretly feel as though their opinion one matter or another is more appropriate than someone else's.  That's just being human.

I don't mind you having a strong reaction to my shooting bottle rockets at cows when I was a kid. After listening to multiple radio interviews with Temple Grandin, I feel really bad for what I did. In my own defense, at the time I did those things I didn't realize the stress flying objects and loud noises had on bovine.

If ever you get a chance to hear an interview with Professor Grandin, take the opportunity to listen. She has a unique insight into the psyche of animals. She is a functioning, severe autistic person who is probably the closest a human can come to being animal in nature but still having the ability to speak.

[Bishamonten]

I could honestly give a sh*t less how acting humanely would affect the capitalist system. 

Which is why your feelings on this matter are equate to nothing more than personal opinion and preference.  Jumping on people who are fine with the current SOP of the meat industry comes off only as haughty. 

That said, this isn't an opinion on something trivial, like wallpaper.  We're talking about abuse and torture.  These are living creatures, not paperweights.  So yes, I believe I have the moral high ground.  People can believe otherwise if they so choose.

Funny thing about 'moral high ground' is that it is entirely subjective.  The same way you throw about your particular verbage:  Torture, abuse.  Also subjective.  You are not differentiating between what is categorically "wrong" and what -you- believe is wrong.  In very few cases can you nail down if something is truly ethical and unethical, and this is not one of them. 

Abuse of animals raised for the slaughter for means of food is wrong.  Why?  Because you deem it so. 

[Bennyhana]

I could honestly give a sh*t less how acting humanely would affect the capitalist system. 

Which is why your feelings on this matter are equate to nothing more than personal opinion and preference.  Jumping on people who are fine with the current SOP of the meat industry comes off only as haughty. 

That said, this isn't an opinion on something trivial, like wallpaper.  We're talking about abuse and torture.  These are living creatures, not paperweights.  So yes, I believe I have the moral high ground.  People can believe otherwise if they so choose.

Funny thing about 'moral high ground' is that it is entirely subjective.  The same way you throw about your particular verbage:  Torture, abuse.  Also subjective.  You are not differentiating between what is categorically "wrong" and what -you- believe is wrong.  In very few cases can you nail down if something is truly ethical and unethical, and this is not one of them. 

Abuse of animals raised for the slaughter for means of food is wrong.  Why?  Because you deem it so. 

I think the only way we are ever able to figure out if something is truly unethical is to apply the golden rule.  I don't kill  because I wouldn't want someone killing me.  I don't steal because I don't want anyone to take my stuff.  I don't have to apply commandments or anything; it's pretty simple to figure out that these things are wrong without help.  That said, the animal mistreatment issue is still tricky.  I don't want anyone torturing me, but I don't want to be killed and eaten, either.  Is it necessary, once we accept that they will die either way, to accept that treating them in a mean way is okay as well? 

I'm on the fence on this one.  I'm torn between my knowledge that I couldn't kill a cow, and my acceptance that it's okay to eat cow.  I think that unnecessary mistreatment is probably wrong, but I have no idea where the line of "Necessary" is.

[Beefy]

It is not necessary to treat the animals the way they are treated, period.  It might be more cost effective, but then again I say that shouldn't be more important then showing that which we feast upon some respect.

If you really want to get down to it, it has become completely unnecessary to eat meat at all, as we have created so much synthetic food that meat is no longer necessary for its nutritional value.  So why do we continue to take the life of creatures when we don't have to?  Because we rationalize it.

And yes, all morality is subjective.  I find all forms of torture to be abhorrent, though I can see the merit of it in certain situations.  I do not find that the meat industries have a legitmate reason to torture.

Think about your dog.  Or your cat.  You know this animal well.  You know it feels pain and happiness and is quite self-aware.  We get upset every time we see a new story about pet abuse.  And yet this other animal abuse is somehow rationalized as being okay.  They might not be as smart as dogs and cats but they sure as heck know what pain is.  Even fish have had successful tests to prove they sense some pain.

The fact that we take advantage of other species lesser abilities and then rationalize our abhorrent behavior towards them disturbs me greatly.  Humans suck.

Does that mean all meat-eaters are bastards?  No, though I bet many are for a variety of reasons.  But it does mean that as a populace we ought to at least have the respect to pay attention to how that food is making it to our table, and to not support unnecessary cruelty where it is found.

It is possible, I imagine, to live a happy, healthy life right up to the point where we blast the bolt into your head.